I vaguely remember learning about this in an human anthropology class back in college. But back then I zoned out because it was explained poorly. But you make actually seem cool and understandable enough to make me want to check out the book. Thank you
I know, it's a little strange to conceptualize. But when you think of zen states and flow states, and when you're so into the present moment that all that self conscious thought washes away—I suspect it's sort of like that. How professional athletes don't think of anything except the game. Or how when you're driving you totally lose awareness of like the mundane task of it because you're so used to doing it. Not all things require consciousness. But when people also say, okay, so what then is consciousness actually for? I think it's for things like writing and poetry, feeling a sense of agency over our choices connecting with one another. Things like that require a more metacognitive state.
wow, what a discussion brewing. I had so much fun reading this analysis that I can't help but say you've probably made at least a couple of books sales for Jaynes. Not that he needs help because it sounds like a classic. This makes me think about the more ambiguous states of consciousness like in dreams or what people experience when they die. Like how durable is the self when the substrate of the brain begins to alter, breakdown or even deteriorate prior to death. So many things to reflect on.
Victoria, you raise so many questions for me, and I know you're mostly thinking in literal terms, but if you'll allow me to move over to a fantasy aspect for a moment, how much harm can a telepath inflict to his subject's 'self' in his forceful infiltration of another's mind. This is not a plastic construct. If we accept that a person's identity is mostly rigid, wouldn't that mean that it can be altered, or broken, even accidentally if pushed the wrong way? especially in the more ambiguous states of consciousness. Ooh Ma'am, I know you commented here on Franco's thing, and you don't know me at all, so I'll forgive you if you feel a little violated by me replying to you like this. Sorry. I just really love this kind of thing.
"Plus, I’m always thinking about my own thoughts—reflecting on my stories and poetry, and how it all originates inside me. It’s what I do here in Garbage Notes. And I’m not ashamed of it."
I'm a kindred spirit, except for a long time I was ashamed and discouraged to revel in my musings.
It wasn't 'productive' and 'kind of goofy'. I'm shedding that shame now and I'm loving it!
good! we need to counteract the notion that introspection and thoughtfulness is unproductive. It's a strategy that the people who try to control use to keep us dumb and mindless so we don't realize we're being controlled. Deep thought + action is the path the freedom.
There's so much here that I'd like to pull as quotes, it all speaks to me so profoundly. I have always been fascinated by introspective in general, metacognition... If I had to choose, two pieces really stand out, "I know these mental acts//are my life-blood, my thumos, my verve,//even more than my real blood…" I feel this exactly, I'd go crazy without my stories, they are what gives me my spark. And your last line "To be lost in your own mind is a truly beautiful thing." I don't think I've ever read truer words. Well done Franco! As always. 🧡
Love the Verve! (the one written on here, and sung by here: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74&si=PcVZxsJrvI2OAILr). I like the point you make, and that the great book cited makes: we were all blank logs walking around once. What an interesting idea, eh? Then we have to ask, what began the "filling in" of the blanks and what began "connecting all the dots." Was it brain chemistry? Competition between Neanderthal, Deviusians, and other flavors of Homo Erectus? Or did it happen even before that, as when we were smarter-than-average chimps? Or to go to the other side of the extremely fraught chasm, was it god, or gods, that interfered with our happy animal state of blankness? Seems to me, we should figure this out FIRST, before pondering and floundering on top of all the other bullshit we think about these days.
Yeah I hear ya, these are all really fundamental questions to understand our humanity and we tend to get caught up in trivial shit. Anyway thanks Jigs for the insightful comment!
I love your Garbage notes on the topic of consciousness - and the richness it embues in our lives both individually and collectively. Thankyou for sharing Franco!
This is fantastic Franco! Gotta love any piece in which you find someone using 'woo woo shit' right in the middle of a bunch of heavier, academic like language!!! Thanks for an awesome way to wake me up on a chilly Monday morning by enlightening me on something brand new. I'm heading to the library today and nabbing that book!
ha, that's a compliment that I will screenshot and save. Thank you, Marie. I'm with you—part of the reason so many people find science inaccessible is because of its cold delivery. As a former scientist and now a current artist, I really try hard to bring warmth to hard truth.
Great! I see you wrote "former scientist". I know you're professionally focused on your artistic writing endeavors but I imagine it's hard to separate the scientist in you, perhaps?
A beautiful piece Franco. I’m reading a book right now called “The Drop” by my old friend Thad Ziolkowski. There’s a passage in it that parallels the ideas and sentiments you’re talking about. Thad described why the borderland between land and sea, the shoreline specifically and not the open ocean, has a certain magnetism to it. Here goes:
“But note that it's not out at sea, aboard a boat or a ship, that most people want to be-it's by and in it. The meeting of land and sea forms an elemental threshold with deep, primal resonance and magnetism. The land is like the awake rational mind of the present, the ocean the uncon-scious, irrational, archaic. The ocean shore is the geographic equivalent of dawn or dusk, of the transitional mode of consciousness between waking and sleep, an intermundial state in which the spirit is quietly loosened from its moorings and set adrift. Edges blur, identities become uncertain, shifting, subject to flux and transformation. New thoughts well up, changes of life direction are contemplated.
The term for interstitial places and states of consciousness is liminal“.
I love the way he draws that comparison and is no mystery to me that I stumbled across your piece today. Kismet! Anyway, thought you’d enjoy that. Have a great day
wow, that is a beautiful and profound excerpt right there. I'll have to check that book out. I agree, though, there's something about the paradoxical 'in between' spaces that stokes our imaginations. We like the tension at the border of things. And with consciousness the big contradiction is despite its mystery, it is something we are so mundanely familiar with. It seems both untouchable and yet so intimately close at the same time. Glad to have encountered, you, Joe. I appreciate the comment greatly.
Yes. It is! Thad is a prolific writer. I met him through surfing when I was in my early 20’s and getting to know him even better now through this book. My ability to identify with him now transcends the prior commonality of the pleasures of wave riding and being captivated by the ocean. Especially because unlike my 20 something year old self, I’m 4 years sober and his experience is relatable to me in ways I couldn’t identify with before when I was “inside the bottle and unable to read the labels”.. I think your piece is so beautiful and really depicts deep feelings we all have yet most of us don’t have the ability to describe with such poetic intelligence. I love your writing. I’ll be back for more on the regs. The pleasure is mutual bud! Looking forward to reading more of your work ! Cheers!
Very interesting! My friend and I were discussing this idea of the emergence of consciousness this very weekend. But it was in the context of the consciousness of animals, especially his very sociable dog. A fascinating subject, all around. Thank you for having these thoughts! :D
oh yes, self awareness in animals is something I think about all the time. As an animal lover and a cat owner, I am confronted and amazed by non-human intelligence day in day out. It's deserving of respect in its own right, and I wish we knew more about depths of animal consciousness.
I've gotta read that book now.
awesome let me know what you think if you do! :)
same! added it to my tbr after reading this !
yay :) enjoy
I vaguely remember learning about this in an human anthropology class back in college. But back then I zoned out because it was explained poorly. But you make actually seem cool and understandable enough to make me want to check out the book. Thank you
I'm really glad to hear that. I hope you get something from it.
I struggle to even imagine a quiet empty mind. How fascinating. Thank you for teaching me something this morning and sharing
I know, it's a little strange to conceptualize. But when you think of zen states and flow states, and when you're so into the present moment that all that self conscious thought washes away—I suspect it's sort of like that. How professional athletes don't think of anything except the game. Or how when you're driving you totally lose awareness of like the mundane task of it because you're so used to doing it. Not all things require consciousness. But when people also say, okay, so what then is consciousness actually for? I think it's for things like writing and poetry, feeling a sense of agency over our choices connecting with one another. Things like that require a more metacognitive state.
wow, what a discussion brewing. I had so much fun reading this analysis that I can't help but say you've probably made at least a couple of books sales for Jaynes. Not that he needs help because it sounds like a classic. This makes me think about the more ambiguous states of consciousness like in dreams or what people experience when they die. Like how durable is the self when the substrate of the brain begins to alter, breakdown or even deteriorate prior to death. So many things to reflect on.
Thanks, Victoria. Those are all really important questions. The answers maybe a little scary, but it's all stuff we'll have to face as human beings.
Victoria, you raise so many questions for me, and I know you're mostly thinking in literal terms, but if you'll allow me to move over to a fantasy aspect for a moment, how much harm can a telepath inflict to his subject's 'self' in his forceful infiltration of another's mind. This is not a plastic construct. If we accept that a person's identity is mostly rigid, wouldn't that mean that it can be altered, or broken, even accidentally if pushed the wrong way? especially in the more ambiguous states of consciousness. Ooh Ma'am, I know you commented here on Franco's thing, and you don't know me at all, so I'll forgive you if you feel a little violated by me replying to you like this. Sorry. I just really love this kind of thing.
Stream Babylon 5 with Bruce Boxlritner.
oh I am definitely a Babylon 5 fan. :)
Never seen it. Oddly enough. Will look it up...
If you like Star Trek DS9 you'll probably like it
Babylon 5 has a subtext that explored mind reader's ethics.
it was a good little story line. I really enjoyed it.
I think you're on to something here, Jenny. I like how you think.
"Plus, I’m always thinking about my own thoughts—reflecting on my stories and poetry, and how it all originates inside me. It’s what I do here in Garbage Notes. And I’m not ashamed of it."
I'm a kindred spirit, except for a long time I was ashamed and discouraged to revel in my musings.
It wasn't 'productive' and 'kind of goofy'. I'm shedding that shame now and I'm loving it!
Great post Franco.
good! we need to counteract the notion that introspection and thoughtfulness is unproductive. It's a strategy that the people who try to control use to keep us dumb and mindless so we don't realize we're being controlled. Deep thought + action is the path the freedom.
I hear that!
Excellent piece! Thank you!
thanks, Jo!
There's so much here that I'd like to pull as quotes, it all speaks to me so profoundly. I have always been fascinated by introspective in general, metacognition... If I had to choose, two pieces really stand out, "I know these mental acts//are my life-blood, my thumos, my verve,//even more than my real blood…" I feel this exactly, I'd go crazy without my stories, they are what gives me my spark. And your last line "To be lost in your own mind is a truly beautiful thing." I don't think I've ever read truer words. Well done Franco! As always. 🧡
thank you, Jenny. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed lines. :)
Love the Verve! (the one written on here, and sung by here: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74&si=PcVZxsJrvI2OAILr). I like the point you make, and that the great book cited makes: we were all blank logs walking around once. What an interesting idea, eh? Then we have to ask, what began the "filling in" of the blanks and what began "connecting all the dots." Was it brain chemistry? Competition between Neanderthal, Deviusians, and other flavors of Homo Erectus? Or did it happen even before that, as when we were smarter-than-average chimps? Or to go to the other side of the extremely fraught chasm, was it god, or gods, that interfered with our happy animal state of blankness? Seems to me, we should figure this out FIRST, before pondering and floundering on top of all the other bullshit we think about these days.
Yeah I hear ya, these are all really fundamental questions to understand our humanity and we tend to get caught up in trivial shit. Anyway thanks Jigs for the insightful comment!
Anything to help your writing, short of giving you Pisa, as in I don't have any to spare, it all goes to the homeless and hungry...
:) thanks
I love your Garbage notes on the topic of consciousness - and the richness it embues in our lives both individually and collectively. Thankyou for sharing Franco!
aw thanks, glad you enjoyed it. thanks, Mark!
Introspection can be very tiring.
Living in My Head
I've got a room for recipes
Got a room with a view
got a room for introspection
Got a room for you
And an extensive library where I
store the things I've read
I've got a space for everything
In that mansion in my head
Chorus
Living in my head
Living in my head
When I'm tired of living large and want a break instead
I retire to a peaceful room
With a warm soft comfy bed
Then the world can do it's own thing
While I'm living in my head
Got a room for politics
Got a room for bucks
At times it's hard to swallow
Why some stuff in them sucks
I've got a room with detailed maps
Got a room packed full of plans
Got a room where recent mail
And miscellaneous lands
Chorus living in my head etc.
Bridge
Sometimes a thought is logical
Sometimes it's absurd
Sometimes I want to nail it down
And I can't find the word
After I have fussed and mused
And then have lost the thread
The thought occurs it's time to still
That voice inside my head
Living in my head
Living in my head
When I'm tired of living large and want a break instead
I retire to a peaceful room
With a custom home made bed
Then the world can do
What it's going to do
While I'm living in my head
PS
I don't need a reservation
I'm good until I'm dead
Malcolm McKinney 2022
it can be. it's not like we're just sitting around all day doing nothing. heavy thinking can be very taxing. thanks for this great follow-up poem!
This helps explain what consciousness really is at the deepest level. Now to introspect something into existence.
thank you, Lisa!
:) thanks, Lisa!
This is fantastic Franco! Gotta love any piece in which you find someone using 'woo woo shit' right in the middle of a bunch of heavier, academic like language!!! Thanks for an awesome way to wake me up on a chilly Monday morning by enlightening me on something brand new. I'm heading to the library today and nabbing that book!
yay, that's exciting to hear. Thanks, Rich. Let me know if it move you or what you think of it. I appreciate you stopping by
I'll simply say it is marvelous how you get to the root of your (and our general) being and how you beautify the coldest scientific matter.
ha, that's a compliment that I will screenshot and save. Thank you, Marie. I'm with you—part of the reason so many people find science inaccessible is because of its cold delivery. As a former scientist and now a current artist, I really try hard to bring warmth to hard truth.
Great! I see you wrote "former scientist". I know you're professionally focused on your artistic writing endeavors but I imagine it's hard to separate the scientist in you, perhaps?
Yes definitely
But it's good to be able to think in a variety of ways and see things from different perspectives
A beautiful piece Franco. I’m reading a book right now called “The Drop” by my old friend Thad Ziolkowski. There’s a passage in it that parallels the ideas and sentiments you’re talking about. Thad described why the borderland between land and sea, the shoreline specifically and not the open ocean, has a certain magnetism to it. Here goes:
“But note that it's not out at sea, aboard a boat or a ship, that most people want to be-it's by and in it. The meeting of land and sea forms an elemental threshold with deep, primal resonance and magnetism. The land is like the awake rational mind of the present, the ocean the uncon-scious, irrational, archaic. The ocean shore is the geographic equivalent of dawn or dusk, of the transitional mode of consciousness between waking and sleep, an intermundial state in which the spirit is quietly loosened from its moorings and set adrift. Edges blur, identities become uncertain, shifting, subject to flux and transformation. New thoughts well up, changes of life direction are contemplated.
The term for interstitial places and states of consciousness is liminal“.
I love the way he draws that comparison and is no mystery to me that I stumbled across your piece today. Kismet! Anyway, thought you’d enjoy that. Have a great day
wow, that is a beautiful and profound excerpt right there. I'll have to check that book out. I agree, though, there's something about the paradoxical 'in between' spaces that stokes our imaginations. We like the tension at the border of things. And with consciousness the big contradiction is despite its mystery, it is something we are so mundanely familiar with. It seems both untouchable and yet so intimately close at the same time. Glad to have encountered, you, Joe. I appreciate the comment greatly.
Yes. It is! Thad is a prolific writer. I met him through surfing when I was in my early 20’s and getting to know him even better now through this book. My ability to identify with him now transcends the prior commonality of the pleasures of wave riding and being captivated by the ocean. Especially because unlike my 20 something year old self, I’m 4 years sober and his experience is relatable to me in ways I couldn’t identify with before when I was “inside the bottle and unable to read the labels”.. I think your piece is so beautiful and really depicts deep feelings we all have yet most of us don’t have the ability to describe with such poetic intelligence. I love your writing. I’ll be back for more on the regs. The pleasure is mutual bud! Looking forward to reading more of your work ! Cheers!
thank you too, likewise and cheers!
Very interesting! My friend and I were discussing this idea of the emergence of consciousness this very weekend. But it was in the context of the consciousness of animals, especially his very sociable dog. A fascinating subject, all around. Thank you for having these thoughts! :D
oh yes, self awareness in animals is something I think about all the time. As an animal lover and a cat owner, I am confronted and amazed by non-human intelligence day in day out. It's deserving of respect in its own right, and I wish we knew more about depths of animal consciousness.
I have seen my cats pout.
they're remarkable expressive
Great poem and even greater explanation.
Thank you, David. Means a lot!